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	<title>Comments on: Shades of gray</title>
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	<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/</link>
	<description>A librarian, writer and educator reflecting on the profession and the tools we use to serve our patrons</description>
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		<title>By: Karen G. Schneider</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187783</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen G. Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:57:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187783</guid>
		<description>Oh, and here&#039;s my post:

http://freerangelibrarian.com/2009/11/11/abram-on-open-source-all-i-can-really-say/</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, and here&#8217;s my post:</p>
<p><a href="http://freerangelibrarian.com/2009/11/11/abram-on-open-source-all-i-can-really-say/" rel="nofollow">http://freerangelibrarian.com/2009/11/11/abram-on-open-source-all-i-can-really-say/</a></p>
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		<title>By: Karen G. Schneider</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187782</link>
		<dc:creator>Karen G. Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 19 Nov 2009 15:57:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187782</guid>
		<description>Meredith, an excellent post (I&#039;ve had limited Internet access during a cross-country relocation, so I am really in an info-vacuum this fall). You capture a lot of what I was trying to say in my own post. 

I could quibble about your representation of OSS versus proprietary systems (and some of us had strong issues with Liblime, yes, even before we went to work for a competitor), but that is beside the point. The key is you make an excellent argument that some vendor reps (and I include OCLC in this group) get a free pass and others do not, something I have never understood. I would add that it is not lost on some of us that there is a huge gap between what some of the front people say and what their companies do. I find it offensive to be hectored from public forums about what libraries should be doing by vendors that make it difficult or impossible to reach those goals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Meredith, an excellent post (I&#8217;ve had limited Internet access during a cross-country relocation, so I am really in an info-vacuum this fall). You capture a lot of what I was trying to say in my own post. </p>
<p>I could quibble about your representation of OSS versus proprietary systems (and some of us had strong issues with Liblime, yes, even before we went to work for a competitor), but that is beside the point. The key is you make an excellent argument that some vendor reps (and I include OCLC in this group) get a free pass and others do not, something I have never understood. I would add that it is not lost on some of us that there is a huge gap between what some of the front people say and what their companies do. I find it offensive to be hectored from public forums about what libraries should be doing by vendors that make it difficult or impossible to reach those goals.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187766</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 19:26:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187766</guid>
		<description>Yep, we have a fundamentally different world view, I find it unethical to use a license precisely designed to stop a user from modifying the software. Them being able to choose a different piece of software instead doesn&#039;t negate the ethical decision the software maker made to restrict users freedoms.

I do agree with you though that it is good that there are increasingly more free software alternatives available now. I also find it heartening that proprietary vendors are having to resort to misinformation and scare tactics to try and keep users. It is a sign of desperation and real fear on their part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yep, we have a fundamentally different world view, I find it unethical to use a license precisely designed to stop a user from modifying the software. Them being able to choose a different piece of software instead doesn&#8217;t negate the ethical decision the software maker made to restrict users freedoms.</p>
<p>I do agree with you though that it is good that there are increasingly more free software alternatives available now. I also find it heartening that proprietary vendors are having to resort to misinformation and scare tactics to try and keep users. It is a sign of desperation and real fear on their part.</p>
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		<title>By: Meredith Farkas</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187765</link>
		<dc:creator>Meredith Farkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 18:29:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187765</guid>
		<description>Chris, I guess we do disagree there. I only think it&#039;s unethical if the person buying the proprietary software is unaware of that fact when they are making the purchase. Otherwise, people have the freedom to choose whatever software they want, whether it is open source or proprietary. We are very lucky to be living in a time in libraries where we have real choices (and good choices) of open source software. Software makers can put whatever restrictions on their software they want -- it is up to the individual to decide whether they want to live with those restrictions.

If someone bought a car knowing that the hood was welded shut, that was the choice they made (a foolish choice, but no ethical lines were crossed). If they were not told about this issue with the car, then it is unethical.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I guess we do disagree there. I only think it&#8217;s unethical if the person buying the proprietary software is unaware of that fact when they are making the purchase. Otherwise, people have the freedom to choose whatever software they want, whether it is open source or proprietary. We are very lucky to be living in a time in libraries where we have real choices (and good choices) of open source software. Software makers can put whatever restrictions on their software they want &#8212; it is up to the individual to decide whether they want to live with those restrictions.</p>
<p>If someone bought a car knowing that the hood was welded shut, that was the choice they made (a foolish choice, but no ethical lines were crossed). If they were not told about this issue with the car, then it is unethical.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bonfield</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187764</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bonfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 04:20:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187764</guid>
		<description>@Meredith--There were a couple of 10-year-old kids who graduated from my library school program with me. The weird thing was, the school required them to let the rest of us copy as much as we wanted from their papers and tests before they turned them in. As you would expect, a few of us had higher GPAs than the 10-year-olds: our experience, resources, and ability to keep our work private gave us a considerable advantage. But I have to hand it to those kids: they still did pretty well. So well, in fact, that the teachers and the rest of us sometimes forgot that they were 10 and that the playing field wasn&#039;t anywhere close to even.

That&#039;s my roundabout response to your second point. Give open source projects time and money--and start now, rather than later--and it won&#039;t be long until open source is the best solution to every problem for every library.

I simply disagree with your first point. I believe there are companies, including library vendors, who refuse to behave unethically. By definition, that means they&#039;d go out of business before they&#039;d compromise their ethics. Which means their bottom line, while important, is not their top priority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Meredith&#8211;There were a couple of 10-year-old kids who graduated from my library school program with me. The weird thing was, the school required them to let the rest of us copy as much as we wanted from their papers and tests before they turned them in. As you would expect, a few of us had higher GPAs than the 10-year-olds: our experience, resources, and ability to keep our work private gave us a considerable advantage. But I have to hand it to those kids: they still did pretty well. So well, in fact, that the teachers and the rest of us sometimes forgot that they were 10 and that the playing field wasn&#8217;t anywhere close to even.</p>
<p>That&#8217;s my roundabout response to your second point. Give open source projects time and money&#8211;and start now, rather than later&#8211;and it won&#8217;t be long until open source is the best solution to every problem for every library.</p>
<p>I simply disagree with your first point. I believe there are companies, including library vendors, who refuse to behave unethically. By definition, that means they&#8217;d go out of business before they&#8217;d compromise their ethics. Which means their bottom line, while important, is not their top priority.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Cormack</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187763</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Cormack</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Nov 2009 01:46:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187763</guid>
		<description>Ahhh, I see where we have a fundamental difference. To me the difference between proprietary and free software IS black and white.
Software which isn&#039;t available to you under a license that protects the 4 crucial freedoms is unethical. 
Much the same way as selling someone a car with the bonnet (hood i think you guys call it) welded shut is unethical.
It&#039;s not a matter of price, but a matter of freedom, you should be free to modify (or to get someone else to modify/fix) something you own.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ahhh, I see where we have a fundamental difference. To me the difference between proprietary and free software IS black and white.<br />
Software which isn&#8217;t available to you under a license that protects the 4 crucial freedoms is unethical.<br />
Much the same way as selling someone a car with the bonnet (hood i think you guys call it) welded shut is unethical.<br />
It&#8217;s not a matter of price, but a matter of freedom, you should be free to modify (or to get someone else to modify/fix) something you own.</p>
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		<title>By: Meredith Farkas</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187762</link>
		<dc:creator>Meredith Farkas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 23:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187762</guid>
		<description>@Brett - Sorry for those two sentences. It was more about sloppy writing than dangerous thinking. The point that I was trying to make was that a company&#039;s top priority is usually (if not always) going to be their bottom line. That doesn&#039;t mean that they won&#039;t care about making libraries better too, but it&#039;s not going to be their #1 goal. They might happen to be evil, but that doesn&#039;t make them evil in and of itself. Plenty of closed-source vendors have done more for the profession than open-source vendors and many have worked to open their systems up in ways that allow programmers to extend their functionality. I am a big fan of open source software, but I do not think it&#039;s the best solution for every problem or for every library.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Brett &#8211; Sorry for those two sentences. It was more about sloppy writing than dangerous thinking. The point that I was trying to make was that a company&#8217;s top priority is usually (if not always) going to be their bottom line. That doesn&#8217;t mean that they won&#8217;t care about making libraries better too, but it&#8217;s not going to be their #1 goal. They might happen to be evil, but that doesn&#8217;t make them evil in and of itself. Plenty of closed-source vendors have done more for the profession than open-source vendors and many have worked to open their systems up in ways that allow programmers to extend their functionality. I am a big fan of open source software, but I do not think it&#8217;s the best solution for every problem or for every library.</p>
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		<title>By: Brett Bonfield</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187761</link>
		<dc:creator>Brett Bonfield</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Nov 2009 22:57:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187761</guid>
		<description>I agree that we need to be careful about vilifying or beatifying anyone. Very few people and organizations deserve either. 

But statements like the following are pretty dangerous:

&quot;They’re all trying to sell something to libraries, right? They all want to make money from us.&quot;

&quot;And all of them will put the good of their company over the good of libraries. That doesn’t make them evil — it makes them good businesspeople.&quot;

This kind of thinking lumps people like Craig Newmark and Warren Buffett in with people like Kenneth Lay and Bernie Ebbers. And it helps to excuse library administrators who make technology decisions based primarily on sticker price, GUI, and what everyone else is already using.

Control over the data matters. Control over the software that manipulates and the data and presents it to users matters. We&#039;ve already ceded control over the metadata that accompanies serials, and, in many disciplines, we&#039;re losing ground on controlling access to the content of those serials as we lease more and more journals instead of buying them.

Of course there are plenty of gray areas, and I agree with your main point: pretending everything is black and white leads to shoddy thinking. But it&#039;s just as shoddy to look at black (or white) and see shades of gray.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that we need to be careful about vilifying or beatifying anyone. Very few people and organizations deserve either. </p>
<p>But statements like the following are pretty dangerous:</p>
<p>&#8220;They’re all trying to sell something to libraries, right? They all want to make money from us.&#8221;</p>
<p>&#8220;And all of them will put the good of their company over the good of libraries. That doesn’t make them evil — it makes them good businesspeople.&#8221;</p>
<p>This kind of thinking lumps people like Craig Newmark and Warren Buffett in with people like Kenneth Lay and Bernie Ebbers. And it helps to excuse library administrators who make technology decisions based primarily on sticker price, GUI, and what everyone else is already using.</p>
<p>Control over the data matters. Control over the software that manipulates and the data and presents it to users matters. We&#8217;ve already ceded control over the metadata that accompanies serials, and, in many disciplines, we&#8217;re losing ground on controlling access to the content of those serials as we lease more and more journals instead of buying them.</p>
<p>Of course there are plenty of gray areas, and I agree with your main point: pretending everything is black and white leads to shoddy thinking. But it&#8217;s just as shoddy to look at black (or white) and see shades of gray.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Teeter</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187757</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Teeter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 06:49:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187757</guid>
		<description>Thank you, Meredith.  You said some things that needed to be said.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you, Meredith.  You said some things that needed to be said.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Lawson</title>
		<link>http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/2009/11/02/shades-of-gray/comment-page-1/#comment-187756</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Lawson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Nov 2009 05:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://meredith.wolfwater.com/wordpress/?p=1345#comment-187756</guid>
		<description>OK, so how about &quot;The report that some people see as overly aggressive in its attempt to discredit FOSS integrated library systems comes hot on the heels of an email that some people saw as overly aggressive in its attempt to discredit those who were upset over the SLA/AskPro name change.&quot; That&#039;s probably more airtight. And &lt;a href=&quot;https://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0910&amp;L=PAMNET&amp;P=R11904&amp;D=0&amp;H=0&amp;O=T&amp;T=0&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here is a link to the Abram email on the SLA thing, if anyone needs that.&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK, so how about &#8220;The report that some people see as overly aggressive in its attempt to discredit FOSS integrated library systems comes hot on the heels of an email that some people saw as overly aggressive in its attempt to discredit those who were upset over the SLA/AskPro name change.&#8221; That&#8217;s probably more airtight. And <a href="https://listserv.nd.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0910&amp;L=PAMNET&amp;P=R11904&amp;D=0&amp;H=0&amp;O=T&amp;T=0" rel="nofollow">here is a link to the Abram email on the SLA thing, if anyone needs that.</a></p>
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